Traveller-digest     Monday, September 6 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1065



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Horizons of stars
Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!))
Re: Jump Horizons of stars
Re: Foundation of the Traveller News Service
RE: request for URLs with Traveller pictures
Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)
RE: Upports
Subject: Aslan Language - Trokh
Re: Vacuum tube computers
Seeking Paul Hume and George Nyhen
Virus and Chamaeleon Hardware
Re: request for URLs with Traveller pictures
Re: Foundation of the TAS
I need Martin Dougherty's e-mail address
Alien Realms
Re: I need Martin Dougherty's e-mail address
Re: The Big Button 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1051
Re: The Big Button (was Re: Testing the Waters)
Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!))
Re: Vacuum tube computers
Re: Vacuum tube computers
Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)
Re: Back from the Front (GCUK99)
Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 14:51:48 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Horizons of stars

At 08:45 06/09/1999 -0400, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>"Hey You" Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> typed thusly:
>>
>>>>        100d from the star makes sense.   It makes for a serious problem
>>>>trying to hike in as a blocade runner, and exposes outgoing vessels to
>>>>privateers, et al as they try and get to the 100d.
>>>
>>>In doing up the systems of Lunion using _First In_, I'm finding most worlds
>>>are well inside the star's 100d limit.  Makes life a little more
>>>interesting.
>>
>> I ran that set of numbers using Book 6 (for the Stellar Radii table) and
>>found *in general* that K and M stars' jump horizon is beyond the habitable
>>orbit, G stars are a tossup, and the younger stars (O,B,A & F) rarely if
ever
>>reach the habitable orbit. This generalization applies best to Type V stars,
>>but can be used for nearly any of them in a pinch...
>>
>>GC
>
>That sounds about right. And the habitable zone for a red giant is several
>_weeks_ from jumppoint, even with high-G ships!

Which begs the question "Why does a star of a given mass have a different
jump radius depending on it being a gas cloud, main sequence, red giant
or black hole?"

Of course, if you use the rate of change of gravity (1/mass^3) rule
you can end up exiting jumpspace in the outer atmosphere of some red giants.

However, that seems more reasonable than being able to jump successfully
from 300km from a black hole.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 07:12:43 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!))

>Eris
>   ps.  Does anyone find these MTU posts useful?  I know they don't
>   always match published sources, but I hope is some folks might be
>   able to use (or spark off from) my ideas in their games.  When I
>   post things like the above I hardly ever hear *any* comments.  If
>   I'm just wasting everybody's bandwidth I guess I should just stop.
>   <sigh>
>--

Arrrrghhhh. No, don't stop!  This just became AKUS reference material.... 
Its amazing how much I learn about the game/universe I'm playing in from 
the TML...

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:11:48 +1200
From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz
Subject: Re: Jump Horizons of stars

On 6 Sep 99, at 14:51, Phil Kitching wrote:

> Of course, if you use the rate of change of gravity (1/mass^3) rule
> you can end up exiting jumpspace in the outer atmosphere of some red giants.

While going into jump from there might by OK, I don't think you'd 
want to exit there too often. I know that it's mostly vacuum, but still...


- --
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:15:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Foundation of the Traveller News Service

At 04:52 PM 9/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Not answering your question (sorry) but just a comment... I am beginning
>to suspect a trend of historical revisionism, intent on giving credit to
>Cleon I for having invented everything good in the Imperium. Time was, 
>it was generally held that the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service was
>formed somewhere in the 600s when the Imperium started to expand after
>the civil wars, and a need was seen for a specialized service whose job
>was exploration and mapping beyond the frontier. Now in the latest works
>(GT) we read about how the IISS actually developed out of an equivalent
>Sylean service.

	Actually, I very distinctly recall an article in the JTAS (the
original, not the IG abomination) which explicitly stated that the
IISS evolved out of the Sylean Federation's scout service. If it is
historical revisionism, it dates back to the days of the all-hallowed
Little Books.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:15:06 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: request for URLs with Traveller pictures

At 04:38 PM 9/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> 	Actually, if I had a choice, I'd like to see artwork even bigger
>> than 1024x800: my desktop is 1152x864 ...
>
>
>Future plan is to have all of my images available at several
resolutions to
>suit an individual's bandwidth and preferences.

	If I were king (and it's good to be king ...), all cool graphics
would be available at about 12,800 x 10,240, and peasants could use
their favorite image program to reduce the size to what fits on their
desktop without having to worry to much about resizing artifacts ...
:-)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:15:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)

At 05:14 PM 9/5/99, you wrote:
>At 12:56 PM 9/5/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>What would be the "acceptable losses" of a planetary population that you are
>>attempting to "liberate" and later rule?
>
>It depends.
>
>Are you trying to win their hearts and minds, or crushing them and their
>little dog Toto too?
>
>If you hope to have some popular support, you make it very clear that you
>will only attack military targets.  This is a two-edged sword, because

	Unfortunately, then you have to deal with:

	- Saddam Hussein placing a civilian bomb shelter right above a
command & control bunker
	- Slobodan Milosevic placing AAA in schoolyards
	- The US placing the Pentagon in the midst of a dense metropolitan
area

Publicly putting restrictions on yourself only exposes you to having
those restrictions manipulated. I wouldn't worry about popular
support among the target population. Better the tactics espoused by
Dickson in one of his novels ... a massively-overwhelming lightning
strike that replaces the entire leadership in one swell foop.
Everything from the chief of state all the way down to the local
police precinct house.

Gets a bit difficult when you're talking about pops in the billions
...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:20:43 -0500 
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Upports

Eris wrote:
>  ps.  Does anyone find these MTU posts useful?  I know they don't
>  always match published sources, but I hope is some folks might be
>  able to use (or spark off from) my ideas in their games.  When I
>  post things like the above I hardly ever hear *any* comments.  If
>  I'm just wasting everybody's bandwidth I guess I should just stop.

I enjoy reading them, Eris. Please keep posting.
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:37:02 -0500 
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Subject: Aslan Language - Trokh

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Anyone know if the examples of Aslan (Trohk) language as published in the
>DGP publication "Solomani and Aslan" remains canon. I know some appeared in
>the CT Aslan alien module, but are the additions in the DGP publication
>canon, and are they copywrite DGP or did they revert to Marc Miller?

I had a good look at this recently. ;-)

Whether the Trokh words in S&A remain canon is not mine to judge, although
words which don't appear in any source prior to S&A are copyright DGP and
have
not AFAIK reverted to Marc Miller. So, they are unlikely to appear in future
Traveller products.

IIRC the primary sources for Trokh are, in order of publication...
1. CT Alien Module 1.
2. Article in JTAS 20-something, don't have it with me right now.
3. MT Ref's Companion
4. MT Rebellion Sourcebook
5. DGP S&A supplement [not owned by MM, and AFAIK not officially canon
   any more].
6. GT Alien Races 2

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 07:47:08 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jpalme2000@digitalsomething.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum tube computers

From: RnLschaefr@aol.com <RnLschaefr@aol.com>
>:::de-lurking::: Has anyone ever figured out how many acres of vac-tubes it
>would take to replace One pc ?...never mind an Imperium system...
>:::lurkermode on:::
>BobS.

Vacuum tubes could be make significantly smaller with advanced manufacturing
techniques. Supposedly, quite sophisticated Soviet technology relied on
miniaturized vacuum tubes computers.

Vacuum tubes on a chip, very interesting gaming concept. We could power them
with Sterling Engines! hehehe and design them on Babage supercomputers.

Fight the virus!

JP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:40:56 -0500 
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Seeking Paul Hume and George Nyhen

Can anyone advise me where I can get in contact with these two?
They are the co-authors of the Space Quest RPG from 1979, and I
am trying to gain their permission to post/refer to parts of it
on my website...

[To avoid cluttering the list, please reply privately to this
address or snakebite@halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk]

Thanks!
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:44:39 -0500 
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Virus and Chamaeleon Hardware

Not wishing to reopen the Virus debate, but in case it hasn't been
posted here, the Oxygen project at MIT is currently working on
chamaeleon hardware, in which actual chip configuration is controlled
by software instructions, so that they can reconfigure handheld hardware
on the fly. If this became widespread, it might explain how Virus is
transmitted.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 07:51:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: request for URLs with Traveller pictures

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Well, if you're going to start collecting the demographics ;)

> Really, really want :)  SGI VizWkstn 540 w/quad Xeon550's, 2gb ram, 54gigs
> hdd, 21" SGI monitor and the addition of Newtek's Video Toaster NT.  A Sony
> VX1000 or Canon XL1 digital prosumer camcorder would be nice as well.

Work: PII450, 19" monitor, 128mb, 7gb drive (but I didn't pay for it ;-) Best
thing? 10mb pipe to the internet 8-)

Home: Mac 7600/132 (for now), 16", 17" monitors, 128 mb, 5 gb drive. Only a
28.8 monitor. Luckily I have a couple of old Syquest drives, one at work, one
at home that gives me a 128 mb sneakernet. 

What I want? Been in _serious_ lust after a G4 with a 22" LCD monitor since
Apple showed them off last week ;-) And our cable company here is rumored to
be starting cable modem service soon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:52:14 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Foundation of the TAS

Phil Kitching writes:

>Much of the "historical revisonism" came with T4, when people were able
>to watch the building of orgainsations that by CT were familiar entities
>that had been created during the history of the Imperium.
> 
>My take is that a lot of things that were in place in M0, changed
>a lot over the next 1100 years. Some things have changed so much
>that they look just like they did 1100 years ago, but nothing like
>400 years ago!

The main problem I had with T4 was that it DIDN'T allow for that effect.
Instead they just took the CT descriptions of various Year 1100 institutions
and pasted them verbatim into the Milieu Zero setting. A fledgeling TAS
might have worked fine, the carbon copy was, IMO, a total mistake.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:25:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: I need Martin Dougherty's e-mail address

Sorry to take up bandwidth with this, but I have something I'd like to send
to Martin Dougherty and I can't find his address. If anyone has it, would
you please e-mail it to me? I know he sometimes posts on the TML, but he
hasn't done so recently.

       Thanks,
      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:30:10 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Alien Realms

.
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (9/5/99)

...
>    Game Designer's Workshop:
>        (Traveller)
>            Alien Realms (Alien Module 9) (262) [$41, NM]
>            The Atlas of the Imperium (?) [$20, F]

  <koff> _$41?!_ <koff>         www.titangames.com

I just sold a Near Mint copy on ebay for $13 this past week so its not that 
bad. :). There are a couple Traveller items left if anybody is interested, 
follow this link:
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thorinn@mediaone.net/

I have missed quite a few digests this summer and was wondering what the 
general concensus has been on the GURPS Traveller  Alien modules?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:33:51 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: I need Martin Dougherty's e-mail address

martinjd@globalnet.co.uk
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:31:11 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: The Big Button 

At 08:10 PM 05/09/1999 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> enjoying it.  My only on-going concern is that I see no way to win...  Virus
>> is like Anthrax;  once an area is contaminated, there seems to be no way to
>> sterlize it...  even a hand-calculator could be the Agent of Doom if you
>> aren't careful while scavenging.  <shrug>  You can quarentine and take
>> precautions, but its there forever.
>
>Well, you *can* eliminate Virus. You just have to have tech that's too
>*dumb* to infect, and use that to examine every single bit of "higher"
>tech that is found in an infected area. Anything other than information
>storage is considered raw materials, and recycled via smelting or worse.
>
        [Great ideas snipped for brevity]

        Hi, Leonard.
        You missed my point.  One "Ethically Challenged Merchant" who makes
planetfall on a Boneyard World and fails to take proper precautions while
scavenging re-starts the whole thing all over again.
        Now, admittedly, the changes in protocols in the TNE era will help
contain the speed of re-infection, but if that ship gets to a starport where
there is a global data net...  BOOM.  <shrug>  That's the problem I see..
not that a "flare up" will re-trash everything that has been rebuilt, but
rather that every once in a while a flare up is going to kill a few million
people.  For generations to come.
        Ick.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:33:14 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1051

At 11:35 PM 05/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>On 09/05/99 at 07:56 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>"Merely" seeding the clouds wilkl at the very least mean that you are
>>depriving areas downwind of you of the rain they'd have otherwise
>>gotten. There *will* be lawsuits from farmers. And possibly from
>>other folks who depend on the water from the rain. 
>
>>Check out the sort of fights that occur over water usage along a
>>river, such as the Colorado. Figure that weather control will start
>>even *worse* fights. And likely have even worse effects ecologically.
>
>Does anyone have any ideas on how to produce a localized and persistant
high pressure ridge? Idea being to eventually change the course of a jet
stream, creating an El Nino type effect in some part of a world.
>
>Eris
>-- 

        Orbital mirrors and a big patch of ground.
        Or get crazy and orbital microwave stations and a big patch of
charred ground.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:35:54 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: The Big Button (was Re: Testing the Waters)

At 11:47 PM 05/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>>If so, would vacuum-tubes and mechanical relays be sufficiently
>>resistant to Virus to make the effort worthwhile, at least for
>>dirtside needs?
>
>Sure.  A substantial part of the computer tech IMTU is based on
>micro-tube technology.  You get big power hungry computers...just
>like CT.  <g> My rational has nothing to do with Virus, though.
>It's the negative effects from the interaction between quantum state
>devices that make CG/AG possible and solid state electronics. 
>
>Eris

        I am gleefully missappropriating that hand-wave for MTU, Eris.  Perfect!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:43:40 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!))

At 12:41 AM 06/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Eris
>  ps.  Does anyone find these MTU posts useful?  I know they don't
>  always match published sources, but I hope is some folks might be
>  able to use (or spark off from) my ideas in their games.  When I
>  post things like the above I hardly ever hear *any* comments.  If
>  I'm just wasting everybody's bandwidth I guess I should just stop.
>  <sigh>  
>--
        <sounds of Eris being gratutiously slapped around>  =)

        OF COURSE these posts are useful!  It is always interesting to see
how other ref's are handling "gargon" and "tech" issues that are so much of
the day-to-day stuff of being a Traveller.  In some cases, your posts
illuminate things I hadn't even *thought* of having a description for!
Please, do continue.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:54:26 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Vacuum tube computers

This brings up a question I have had for along time, is the vacuum of space
as hard a vacuum as in a vacuum tube?  If it is than wouldn't that whole
technology merit rethought for use as in cheap "low tech" applications on
air less rocks and constant vacuum situations in general?  The guts of the
"tubes" would need to be shielded from dust of course but the heat
dissipation issue would be largely solved in short order, indeed a source of
heat would probably need to be supplied.  What does everyone think?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:40:03 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum tube computers

>This brings up a question I have had for along time, is the vacuum of space
>as hard a vacuum as in a vacuum tube?  If it is than wouldn't that whole
>technology merit rethought for use as in cheap "low tech" applications on
>air less rocks and constant vacuum situations in general?  The guts of the
>"tubes" would need to be shielded from dust of course but the heat
>dissipation issue would be largely solved in short order, indeed a source
of
>heat would probably need to be supplied.  What does everyone think?

Couldn't a small "static" field be generated to keep dust away?


___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:23:39 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)

Black ICE wrote:

>The loss comparison between Eighth Air Force strikes on Germany and the
>US Navy/USMC aviators at Midway is not a valid standard, for the
>following reasons:

True - one was a campaign average, the other a statistic from a single
operation. Nevertheless...

>1.  No single non-nuclear strike against a strategic (land-based) enemy
>target could have an immediate effect comparable to the effect of
>knocking out three of the six Japanese fleet carriers in one blow
>(HIRYU, the fourth Japanese fleet carrier lost at Midway, fell victim to
>subsequent strikes).  Depriving the Imperial Japanese Navy of its
>primary offensive arm was worth nearly any losses among naval aviators,
>especially since the US Navy had a robust pilot training program to
>replace lost aviators.  The primary tragedy of Midway (for the US Navy)
>was that the battle occurred just prior to the replacement of the
>thoroughly-obsolete TBD "Devastator" torpedo bomber by the TBF/TBM
>"Avenger."  Had the battle occurred a couple of months later, USS
>HORNET's Torpedo Squadron Eight would likely have had more than one
>survivor out of 30 aircrew.

To be honest, the difference between a squadron of TBDs and TBFs with no
escort against the Japanese CAP is pretty moot - it's a bad day for the
torpedo aircraft.

>2.  No US carrier-based aircraft in the Battle of Midway carried more
>than 2 personnel.  In contrast, B-17s in the Eighth Air Force carried a
>crew of about 10 personnel (based on crew photo, B-17G "Screwball
>Express").  Further, aircraft losses in (victorious) naval battles did
>not convert directly to crew losses.  For instance, at Midway, out of
>163 American aviators (pilots and crew) shot down, at least 27 were
>recued by PBY Catalina flying boats [Keegan, _The Price of Admiralty_,
>page 249].  Keegan mentions also [ibid, page 249] that other air crew
>were rescued by other means (since he doesn't specify numbers, I
>won't).  B-17 crews, OTOH, were less likely to be recovered, and more
>likely to become PWs (that's what happens when you overfly enemy
>territory...).

B-17 = 10 crew (pilot, co-pilot, navigator, bombardier, 2x waist
gunners, tail gunner, ball turret gunner, engineer, and the one I
forget).

What this does buy you is some degree of ability to fight off attacks. A
TBD isn't going to fend off enemy fighters for long with it's paltry
defensive armament. OTOH, a Shorts Sunderland flying boat (with a
defensive armament of around 8 .303 calibre mgs) held off five Ju-88s.
Attacking a late-model B-17 with 13 .50 calibre mgs wasn't an easy
proposition.

>3.  Total personnel losses by the winning side at Midway (fewer than
>1000 [Keegan, _The Price of Admiralty_, page 249]) were far fewer than
>those suffered by the Germans (the tactical victors) at Jutland (just
>over 2500 [ibid, page 177]).  With far fewer fatalities, the US Navy
>achieved a far more decisive victory at Midway than the German High Seas
>Fleet achieved at Jutland.

The Germans were tactical victors at Jutland? Being chased from the
field; losing one battleship outright and having a modern BC flood so
badly that it couldn't make harbour is wining? The Grand Fleet reported
that it was at 24 hours notice for sea after Jutland. The High Seas
Fleet couldn't sortie for months. Your point would probably be better
made by looking at RN losses - higher than the Germans, in terms of both
ships and men. But which fleet then stayed in port until 1918 and then
mutinied rather than sortie again?

>ObTrav:  I would expect that the perceptions of "acceptable" losses
>would vary wildly in the 3I's armed forces, depending on the branch in
>question.  For instance, the Imperial Navy would likely _expect_ to lose
>25% or more of its warships committed to attacking a heavily-defended
>system.  Imperial Marines and Imperial Army jump troops probably expect
>to lose 20% or so of their forces just getting dirtside from orbit. 
>Regular Imperial Army forces, OTOH, would be _appalled_ to see 20%
>losses in a unit through an entire campaign.

I could see the first wave of a planetary assault being very much like
the `forlorn hope' of Napoleonic assaults on fortresses - expected
casualty rates above 80%, instant promotions for those who live.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:51:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Back from the Front (GCUK99)

"Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> writes:

>>Rush out and buy MAG-BLAST! by Fantasy Flight Games. It's a small non-CCG
<snip>
>No, for the love of heaven - don't! You'll end up staying up until stupid
>hours in the morning, you may have to fight off blasphemous ideas about
>replacing High Guard, and above all else you might draw the race whose only
>special ability is that they can blow up their own scoutships.

What Nick fails to mention is that when staying up playing the game to two
in the morning in the Bar at GenCon UK, he demonstrated the amazing ability
to parry a beam blast - direct hit - catastrophic damage attack on his
flagship with another card, parrying in the style of a flourished rapier!
This after he brutally destroyed my quiet and peaceful forces...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:56:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)

rboleyn@paradise.net.nz writes:
>So do I. From what I've seen in local rpg stores (or rather what hasn't
>been there) DnD has been steadily fading in the last few years, and
>with it the rest of the hobby. IMO it's about time for a new edition of
>DnD - 10 years after ADnD2, and I'm really pleased they've bitten the
>bullet and done a proper job of revising it. Now if only they get rid of
>exceptional strength.

The T-Shirt they were giving away at GCUK 99 said 'Strength 48' was in. The
description on the back of the shirt made it look like a power gamer's wet
dream.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1065
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